I don't agree. We know a lot --the missing part is positive ID of the bodies. We also are speculating on what brought the plane down --either a missile or a bomb. Planes don't just fall out of the sky. If Prigozhin is alive, he will let us know.
Sorry, I may have rushed in writing my comment. With "everything" I meant "everything about Prigozhin (and possibly Utkin)", surely not the fact that an airplane has crashed... that's quite obvious and nobody denies it.
However, there are still lots of rumours, even about the numbers of corpses found on the place where the incident happened. RIA Novosti (https://t.me/rian_ru/213001) has previously reported that 8 people were found dead, but TASS (https://t.me/tass_agency/206530) has just reported that 7 people have been recovered from under the wreckage.
Given the only people killed during his mutiny were the ones shot down on the plane and helicopter, what is the likelihood this is necessary payback, by the military?
Probably not on Putin's initiative, but with his acquiescence.
August 24th is Ukraine's Independence day. Zelensky and Co have been desperate for some media wins to keep their frenzied public excited, it has been a pattern with them to wage a media war at home showing victories. A senseless desperate push at Rabotino, the drone attack on Moscow, Crimea, speedboats off the Snake island, an attempt to penetrate into Kursk region are an attempt to plant a flag an present a victory to the public. It is interesting that Prigozhin's death in Russian skies close to Moscow is already beings spun on Ukrainian channels as a major victory, it would be interesting to see that if Ukrainian officials will indirectly start "taking credit" for that....The timing is very suspicious..... I am not saying that Prigozhin has no enemies in Russia, but there are more graceful less embarrassing ways to get rid of him in Africa.... If I had to guess I would say Ukranian GRU has a pattern of killing high profile individuals at appropriate times (i.e. no bad news at the front) to shift media's attention. Moscow, for obvious reasons, has been their target, they managed to pull off a few things there with their network. That would be a major miss for Russian FSB. Another thing to watch is whether Putin retaliates with a major strike (i.e GRU or Nato targets in Ukraine) a few days later. It would not happen right away to avoid playing into Zelensky's media game...
The original deal was Wagner forces could (a) choose to rejoin the regular Russian army or (b) leave the country and go to Belarus. It is true that Prigozhin rejected (a) and said so apparently in his meeting with Putin and Wagner leaders. So they marched off to Belarus (and thence of Africa).
Wow...I certainly didn't expect to see this news today. Yes, in my "plane geek" notes, I have the Embraer 600 noted as one of Prig's planes w/reg RA-02795. Flightradar does show it scheduled for a flight today, but without times/destination, which would make sense. I have a second one as one of Prig's jets - a BAe 125-800B w/reg RA-02878, it was travelling with the Embraer over the "coup" weekend & it comes out of St. Petersburg, too. I believe I read the Embraer 600 was sanctioned by the US. I've not seen the 650 mentioned before, but that doesn't mean anything other than I've not seen it before. Interestingly, both of these planes showed up on my flight watching programs - and I do not watch civilian aircraft - only military and gov't aircraft...
Well, this will certainly add to the mystery and myth of Wagner. If this was anything other than a mechanical failure of the aircraft, I can't imagine the core group of Wagnerites letting it go. If it was some type of attack/sabotage, God help whoever is involved, whether from within or outside of Russia. As Stephen says, they are fiercely independent and loyal; they have their own creed they adhere to and no doubt a great many of that core group are very, very dangerous men.
If Surovikin has been fired from his post, I wonder if he will leave the military altogether - maybe jump ship to Wagner? Go to Africa, perhaps?
I bet the conspiracy theories for this incident will be like a tsunami the next few days.
I agree - Prigozhin is not the type to "lie low" for very long. As you said below, if we also get some statement of positive ID of the remains of passengers on the jet.
Prigozhin is alive and he was not on board the plane: Information about his death, as well as the death of the commander of the Wagner Group, Dmitry Utkin, cannot be verified at the moment, according to a federal source, Rossiyskaya Gazeta.
Yevgeny Prigozhin could be on another plane. Previously, for the purposes of conspiracy, the businessman regularly confused everyone. According to the source, Prigozhin allegedly registered on one side, and at that time boarded another plane.
Информационная поддержка Президента России
7 minutes ago ·
Пригожин жив и его не было на борту самолета: Информацию о его кончине, а также смерти командира «Группы Вагнера» Дмитрия Уткина, невозможно на данный момент проверить, сообщает федеральный источник Российская Газета.
Евгений Пригожин мог находится на другом самолете. Ранее в целях конспирации бизнесмен регулярно всех запутывал. Как указывает источник, Пригожин якобы регистрировался на один борт, а в это время садился на другой самолет.
The source does not confirm the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin as a result of the plane crash — his fate is unknown
The source indicates that reports of the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin are premature at the moment. Information about his death, as well as the death of the commander of the Wagner Group, Dmitry Utkin, cannot be verified at the moment, a media source reports.
Yevgeny Prigozhin could be on another plane. Previously, for the purposes of conspiracy, the businessman regularly confused everyone. According to the source, Prigozhin allegedly registered on one side, and at that time boarded another plane.
Новости Президента России!
.
Новости Президента России!
today at 1:43 am
⚡Источник не подтверждает смерть Евгения Пригожина в результате крушения самолета — его судьба неизвестна
Источник указывает, что сообщения о смерти Евгения Пригожина на данный момент преждевременные. Информацию о его кончине, а также смерти командира «Группы Вагнера» Дмитрия Уткина, невозможно на данный момент проверить, сообщает источник СМИ.
❗Евгений Пригожин мог находится на другом самолете. Ранее в целях конспирации бизнесмен регулярно всех запутывал. Как указывает источник, Пригожин якобы регистрировался на один борт, а в это время садился на другой самолет.
Too early to say anything. At the moment everything is just pure speculation.
Let's wait at least 24-48 hours.
Prigozhin has accustomed us to quite a few "plays", including the "coup".
I don't agree. We know a lot --the missing part is positive ID of the bodies. We also are speculating on what brought the plane down --either a missile or a bomb. Planes don't just fall out of the sky. If Prigozhin is alive, he will let us know.
Sorry, I may have rushed in writing my comment. With "everything" I meant "everything about Prigozhin (and possibly Utkin)", surely not the fact that an airplane has crashed... that's quite obvious and nobody denies it.
However, there are still lots of rumours, even about the numbers of corpses found on the place where the incident happened. RIA Novosti (https://t.me/rian_ru/213001) has previously reported that 8 people were found dead, but TASS (https://t.me/tass_agency/206530) has just reported that 7 people have been recovered from under the wreckage.
Given the only people killed during his mutiny were the ones shot down on the plane and helicopter, what is the likelihood this is necessary payback, by the military?
Probably not on Putin's initiative, but with his acquiescence.
interesting theory
we don't know enough to say
What makes you thing Ukraine offed this guy. What if Putin took him out, pointed finger at Ukraine.
I am not sure who you are referring to. I don't think Ukraine was involved, no matter what they say now.
Mb69....typed in the wrong spot in the thread.
You're solid.
As usual.
August 24th is Ukraine's Independence day. Zelensky and Co have been desperate for some media wins to keep their frenzied public excited, it has been a pattern with them to wage a media war at home showing victories. A senseless desperate push at Rabotino, the drone attack on Moscow, Crimea, speedboats off the Snake island, an attempt to penetrate into Kursk region are an attempt to plant a flag an present a victory to the public. It is interesting that Prigozhin's death in Russian skies close to Moscow is already beings spun on Ukrainian channels as a major victory, it would be interesting to see that if Ukrainian officials will indirectly start "taking credit" for that....The timing is very suspicious..... I am not saying that Prigozhin has no enemies in Russia, but there are more graceful less embarrassing ways to get rid of him in Africa.... If I had to guess I would say Ukranian GRU has a pattern of killing high profile individuals at appropriate times (i.e. no bad news at the front) to shift media's attention. Moscow, for obvious reasons, has been their target, they managed to pull off a few things there with their network. That would be a major miss for Russian FSB. Another thing to watch is whether Putin retaliates with a major strike (i.e GRU or Nato targets in Ukraine) a few days later. It would not happen right away to avoid playing into Zelensky's media game...
I can't imagine Ukraine had anything to do with this. If I were Zelensky, I would worry.
who knows, we are in the fog of war...There are rumors that Wagner is being integrated into MOD, Prigozhin was dead set against it...
The original deal was Wagner forces could (a) choose to rejoin the regular Russian army or (b) leave the country and go to Belarus. It is true that Prigozhin rejected (a) and said so apparently in his meeting with Putin and Wagner leaders. So they marched off to Belarus (and thence of Africa).
He is not dead............he is too smart.
I think he is.
Far too smart.
Wow...I certainly didn't expect to see this news today. Yes, in my "plane geek" notes, I have the Embraer 600 noted as one of Prig's planes w/reg RA-02795. Flightradar does show it scheduled for a flight today, but without times/destination, which would make sense. I have a second one as one of Prig's jets - a BAe 125-800B w/reg RA-02878, it was travelling with the Embraer over the "coup" weekend & it comes out of St. Petersburg, too. I believe I read the Embraer 600 was sanctioned by the US. I've not seen the 650 mentioned before, but that doesn't mean anything other than I've not seen it before. Interestingly, both of these planes showed up on my flight watching programs - and I do not watch civilian aircraft - only military and gov't aircraft...
Well, this will certainly add to the mystery and myth of Wagner. If this was anything other than a mechanical failure of the aircraft, I can't imagine the core group of Wagnerites letting it go. If it was some type of attack/sabotage, God help whoever is involved, whether from within or outside of Russia. As Stephen says, they are fiercely independent and loyal; they have their own creed they adhere to and no doubt a great many of that core group are very, very dangerous men.
If Surovikin has been fired from his post, I wonder if he will leave the military altogether - maybe jump ship to Wagner? Go to Africa, perhaps?
I bet the conspiracy theories for this incident will be like a tsunami the next few days.
I believe we will hear a lot of noise, but how much of it adds up to anything is another matter. If Prigozhin makes no appearance, then he is dead.
I agree - Prigozhin is not the type to "lie low" for very long. As you said below, if we also get some statement of positive ID of the remains of passengers on the jet.
Payback or convenient excuse to not be present at war tribunals? I’m afraid we’ll never know
probably right
It seems that:
Prigozhin is alive and he was not on board the plane: Information about his death, as well as the death of the commander of the Wagner Group, Dmitry Utkin, cannot be verified at the moment, according to a federal source, Rossiyskaya Gazeta.
Yevgeny Prigozhin could be on another plane. Previously, for the purposes of conspiracy, the businessman regularly confused everyone. According to the source, Prigozhin allegedly registered on one side, and at that time boarded another plane.
Информационная поддержка Президента России
7 minutes ago ·
Пригожин жив и его не было на борту самолета: Информацию о его кончине, а также смерти командира «Группы Вагнера» Дмитрия Уткина, невозможно на данный момент проверить, сообщает федеральный источник Российская Газета.
Евгений Пригожин мог находится на другом самолете. Ранее в целях конспирации бизнесмен регулярно всех запутывал. Как указывает источник, Пригожин якобы регистрировался на один борт, а в это время садился на другой самолет.
I already answered this before so I don't see the point of belaboring it.
The source does not confirm the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin as a result of the plane crash — his fate is unknown
The source indicates that reports of the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin are premature at the moment. Information about his death, as well as the death of the commander of the Wagner Group, Dmitry Utkin, cannot be verified at the moment, a media source reports.
Yevgeny Prigozhin could be on another plane. Previously, for the purposes of conspiracy, the businessman regularly confused everyone. According to the source, Prigozhin allegedly registered on one side, and at that time boarded another plane.
Новости Президента России!
.
Новости Президента России!
today at 1:43 am
⚡Источник не подтверждает смерть Евгения Пригожина в результате крушения самолета — его судьба неизвестна
Источник указывает, что сообщения о смерти Евгения Пригожина на данный момент преждевременные. Информацию о его кончине, а также смерти командира «Группы Вагнера» Дмитрия Уткина, невозможно на данный момент проверить, сообщает источник СМИ.
❗Евгений Пригожин мог находится на другом самолете. Ранее в целях конспирации бизнесмен регулярно всех запутывал. Как указывает источник, Пригожин якобы регистрировался на один борт, а в это время садился на другой самолет.
The Russian press says he is dead. Whether he really is, we will know very soon.
the end, or the beginning of conspiracy theories, or both?? looks like both here..