"It is easy to understand that if NATO actually sent troops or brought NATO air power to bear on Russian operations in Ukraine, the war would rapidly expand to Europe."
Umm! If NATO (i.e. the US Administration) actually sent troops directly against the Russians in the Ukraine, the resulting war would not be limited to Europe. We could reasonably expect the thermonuclear destruction of Washington D.C. Every cloud has a silver lining!
In Feb 1951, Eisenhower wrote the following words:
“If in 10 years, all American troops stationed in Europe for national defense purposes have not been returned to the United States, then this whole project [NATO] will have failed.”
Here we are over 70 years later. What would Ike think?
Define "fail". Ike had his definition. Lockheed, and Boeing and Palantir have their own definitions of success and failure. As do the military Keynesians who managed the US economy into terminal decline over seven decades.
Gee, I don't know. Just about every "threat" to the U.S. since the USSR dissolved has been a sham threat manufactured by the U.S to justify U.S. aggression. You don't think that could have been the case from the get-go, now do you? And when you compare post-World War II U.S. foreign policy to post-World War II Soviet foreign policy things get even more dicey. Nearly all of the post-World War II death, destruction, chaos and suffering around the world was the result of U.S. actions. Well, at least the arms manufacturers and the Pentagon prospered.
There are only two questions remining to be answered in the Russia Ukraine war without direct entry by NATO (read US) troops. The first is how much territory Ukraine will lose. The second is how many will die to answer the first question.
There is no Russian-Ukrainian war. Russia is not at war with the former Ukraine, Russia is at war in Ukraine with the United States and its vassals. And the answer to your question can only be given in Washington, they are responsible for this war.
Whether it actually is or not, the SMO is referred to as the Russia Ukraine War. It is Russian and Ukrainian soldiers dying. No NATO forces are officially involved in actual combat. When NATO (read US) troops are actively fighting Russian troops then it will become a US Russian war.
I do agree that Washington is responsible for the war and when it will end. Hopefully, that end will be before it spirals into WWIII.
Officially, this is a Russian-Ukrainian war, but in fact a Russian-American one. By the way, officially this may not be a war at all, because the state has not declared war at the same time.
To answer your question. After this war, there will be no Ukraine and the next will unfold in Moldova, which will involve Romania(Nato outpost).
The reason for Russia to go all the way to Lvov is pulling up the root of the russofobia in Ukraine, which soil is western Ukraine. Making Lvov a part of the Sovjet Empire was in way Stalins revenge. If the Sovjet order was disturb, a bloody war in Europe was guaranteed.
“As this paper is written, anti-corruption investigations, arrests and firings in the Russian military are taking place as Russia’s leadership tries to upgrade army leadership and improve military equipment and supplies released to the troops. “
Just like all the anti-corruption investigations progressing in NATO and the US. Hahahahahaha
Also, Russia now has an army of 1.5 million and will easily get millions more if attacked by NATO as opposed to Europe and the US who will find very few competent volunteers.
Russia produces artillery shells for $600 each, the US and Europe spend $5,000 per shell. Russia has hypersonic missiles and NATO and the U.S. have none. Russia get the military equipment that keeps them safe. The US gets the military equipment that makes the military industrial complex rich.
"NATO’s future is inextricably linked to Ukraine. As the war reaches an end point with Kiev potentially forced to deal with Moscow, Ukraine’s defense minister is working hard to convince Washington to give Ukraine long range weapons to attack Russian territory, especially Moscow and St. Petersburg. The Ukrainians know very well that if Washington cooperates fully, the Ukraine war will invite even more violent Russian attacks. They are counting on this to draw NATO in and have NATO troops replace Ukrainians on the front line. It is easy to understand that if NATO actually sent troops or brought NATO air power to bear on Russian operations in Ukraine, the war would rapidly expand to Europe."
NATO also knows this, which is why it will only happen after the US presideintial election.
<<<<<which is why it will only happen after the US presideintial election<<<<< But not if Trump wins. He will force both sides to the table. If they can't work out a deal, he will work out one for them. And whatever one's opinion of Trump, no one ignores him.
Not because he is superman but in this case because he has the keys to the money train. Money to rebuild Ukraine, lots and lots of it, trillions maybe, much of it from the E.U. Managed by Black rock, Goldman etc. with dispersal handled by Ukrainian elites. ....If the war stops immediately.
Give back money to Russia that belongs to Russia anyway. The Obama/Iran pallet loads of cash type deal on steroids but with gold instead just to give it that Trump flair. Not a puny couple billion like Obama/Iran but three hundred billion ....plus an extra fifty billion interest just for Russia being patient. To paraphrase Trump .....It will be the biggest, most beautiful Danegeld payment in history. People will say it's the best....
In addition lift a whole bunch of game changing sanctions on Russia that don't mean anything to the American public but matter very much to Russia .....if the war stops immediately.
Naturally, the current Ukrainian leadership would have to be replaced but that's easy enough to do.
Of course, the E.U. would still be Russia sanctioned into being dependent on American energy policy. But from Trump's point of view that is how it should be. Since green philosophy which requires everybody to be clueless about energy dominates European elite culture, the E.U. will think that's a good thing as well.
But don't you see? That's the whole point. You want him to find some flimsy excuse to go to war with Russia, bring back conscription and send troops over to easily defeat Russia. Except after he left office that's what America did but only half heartedly ......minus the conscription to force troops over to die in Ukraine....... And now we know from bitter experience that it wouldn't be easy after all. American troops would die by the tens of thousands regardless of whatever damage they could do to a country five thousand miles deep, if Trump had done what you want.
Ditto for Syria. You want him to go to war with Russia in Syria simply because you want him to go to war with Russia. Instead he took on ISIS and defeated it completely. With Russian help. Then he left while Russia stayed. Let Russia have whatever it thinks it gets from its costly, deadly exposure in Syria. Likely to get much more deadly and costly in the very near future. Who besides you cares if Putin can convince the locals there that he is big news?
Currently, America is involved in two active wars and trying to get a third one started. In all those situations, the participants believe that eventually America will do what you want and send in hundred of thousands of American troops if necessary. None of them thought that when Trump was in office.
It isn't him that is weak, stupid and easily manipulated.
I don't want any of the things you say I want, that's where you start to go wrong.
But what I want has no bear on what is, and what Trump is, is weak, stupid and easily manipulated.
Ther rest of your response is wishful thinking and premature declaration of victory. US troops remained in Syria throughout Trump's presidency and are there today, BTW. They are protecting ISIS, as everyone knows.
For that matter, when he was in office, the generals simply ignored or slow-played Trump orders that they did not like. Weak, stupid and easily manipulated.
n.b. I have precisely zero intention of voting for or supporting Harris.
<<<<US troops remained in Syria throughout Trump's presidency and are there today, <<<<<< But not fighting Russians or their proxies. Fighting ISIS through proxies mostly, while Trump was President.
You claim Trump folded in Syria against Russia. I say....good thing he did.... Got rid of ISIS as a threat (at least while he was in office) and didn't get into a multi-sided war with one of the opponents being a near peer. You say he should have forced the war in Ukraine while he was in office instead of leaving it to Biden to start. I say good thing.....since Russia is winning the war, overcoming the sanctions, humiliating NATO, and starting to look like the rational, calm guy in world affairs everywhere in the world except the western media .
I'm not sure that the generals ignoring the President's orders is proof of much except the willingness of people such as yourself to construe that as a good thing. (if you don't like the President) Certainly, they are ignoring Biden's orders in the same way and will ignore Harris as well.
What everybody knows about Syria is that Russia is protecting the Assad regime. One of the goals of ISIS was to overthrow the Assads. They came pretty close to succeeding. (with indirect assistance from America) That is to say ISIS, as well as American supported proxies were succeeding in their attacks on the Assad regime until Russia came and brought in air power.
You betray a complete misunderstanding of absolutely everything going on in Syria if you think it feasible that Russia was trying to undermine the Syrian government by protecting ISIS. Which I guess means you also believe that it was American troops that were trying to shelter the Syrian government.
I did not say that Trump folded against Russia. Trump folded against hios own generals. ISIS is still there, BTW, under American protection. Same as under weak, stpud, easily manipulated Trump.
I never said that the generals ignoring Trump was a good thing. Simply proof that Trump is weak, stupid and easily manipulated.
I never said that Russia was trying to undermine the Syrian government. Nor did I say that Russia was protecting ISIS. Can you point to where I said this, or do you have a problem with reading comprehension? Rather, it was Trump that attacked Syria twice on laughable pretexts.
Europe could create an army, but without weapons. The military industrial complex is a problem for the West, particular Europe.
Besides look at geography and logistics.
Eastern Europe is an easy prey for Russia, having basically created the logistics for it's army in Eastern Europe during the cold war. A huge problem for Nato as ben Hodges admitted back in 2016.
The only time American military was truly glorious was at the Elba river reunion and IKE was giggling over hand painted American flag that American soldiers who fought and bleed in the Second World War waved at Russians and the way they recognize them at the first sight were golden medals at Soviet soldiers chests. Then you guys had the impulse to go into in Vietnam and to create unlivable area in Cambodia along the way. And to kill two Kennedys and MLK in the process. The Korean war and the Vietnam War were a disasters. Documented atrocities committed by Americans in the war zone. Iraque is the country amongs the axis of evil according to Izrael besides the Syria and Iran. And you did send your military there to find out there were no weapons of mass destruction produced by the head of the state that was hanged. Then when the Clinton had an impulse to go after White House intern (no judging zone, his wife is ugly, breaking a glass ceiling any time she has a chance) American people were briefed over atrocities in the Eastern Europe and everybody particularly Good Time Charlie a Texas senator were quick to Americanize the Bosnia after he had his stance in Afghanistan. The Afgan war the longest war in the sorts of democratic state history was lost miserably by all mighty force so Biden administration has to invent a new American holiday Juneteenth to celebrate the fact that you freed your slaves in your 248 existence. So how come Mother Russia (the biggest country in the world because her men always knew how to fight) should ever answer to whoever election cycle?
What's next is the annihilation of the Ukrainian forces and fulfillment of Russian war objectives. Likely Ukraine will be entirely disarmed and cut off from the Black Sea forming an impotent rump state.
NATO will be humiliated, the object of scorn, with no chance at redemption. That's because many of the key NATO states are politically divided with absolutely no appetite for the kind of wars that Brussels and Washington would love to pursue. It's highly unlikely that cannon fodder can be dragooned from Germany and France, and the United States for that matter. Furthermore NATO states are a financially bankrupt, economically spent , post-industrial windmill junkyard.
Global political power will be dispersed on a multinational basis led by the victorious Russians and the Chinese economic/ industrial/technological/ juggernaut. The West will wither and largely become irrelevant on the global scene. But peace will prevail.
Virtually from the start i NATO has been a MICIMATT Cash cow. After World War II ended, the economic managers in the US, fearing a return to economic depression, decided upon military Keynesian and spending as the best route for propping up the economy without impinging on domestic revenue sectors.
The next turning point occurred in a late 60s when the predator class decided to embark on a post industrial economy. Over Time the West could no longer generate military hardware and military troops capable of fighting war against peer powers. War is still a heavy industry when the west with its Windmill economies simply cannot compete on the playing fields of war.
NATO was created in the days of Dwight Eisenhower's military industrial complex.
Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern updated its name to the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Intelligence-Media-Academia-Think-Tank (MICIMATT) complex to reflect the massive conspiracy it has become.
"It is easy to understand that if NATO actually sent troops or brought NATO air power to bear on Russian operations in Ukraine, the war would rapidly expand to Europe."
Umm! If NATO (i.e. the US Administration) actually sent troops directly against the Russians in the Ukraine, the resulting war would not be limited to Europe. We could reasonably expect the thermonuclear destruction of Washington D.C. Every cloud has a silver lining!
I would not rule out any possibility, but I imagine the Russians would try and limit the war if they can.
No. If NATO intervenes, no one in Russia will limit the war to Europe.
Which war?
In Feb 1951, Eisenhower wrote the following words:
“If in 10 years, all American troops stationed in Europe for national defense purposes have not been returned to the United States, then this whole project [NATO] will have failed.”
Here we are over 70 years later. What would Ike think?
Source for quote: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464-story.html
He was right.
We clearly failed
Define "fail". Ike had his definition. Lockheed, and Boeing and Palantir have their own definitions of success and failure. As do the military Keynesians who managed the US economy into terminal decline over seven decades.
Gee, I don't know. Just about every "threat" to the U.S. since the USSR dissolved has been a sham threat manufactured by the U.S to justify U.S. aggression. You don't think that could have been the case from the get-go, now do you? And when you compare post-World War II U.S. foreign policy to post-World War II Soviet foreign policy things get even more dicey. Nearly all of the post-World War II death, destruction, chaos and suffering around the world was the result of U.S. actions. Well, at least the arms manufacturers and the Pentagon prospered.
Of course. The question remains - what does anyone propose to do about it?
The next political test for the NATO might also be Turkey becoming a BRICS member. (They have declared intention)
The Turkish leadership continues to crave American carrot and fear American stick.
There are only two questions remining to be answered in the Russia Ukraine war without direct entry by NATO (read US) troops. The first is how much territory Ukraine will lose. The second is how many will die to answer the first question.
There is no Russian-Ukrainian war. Russia is not at war with the former Ukraine, Russia is at war in Ukraine with the United States and its vassals. And the answer to your question can only be given in Washington, they are responsible for this war.
Whether it actually is or not, the SMO is referred to as the Russia Ukraine War. It is Russian and Ukrainian soldiers dying. No NATO forces are officially involved in actual combat. When NATO (read US) troops are actively fighting Russian troops then it will become a US Russian war.
I do agree that Washington is responsible for the war and when it will end. Hopefully, that end will be before it spirals into WWIII.
Officially, this is a Russian-Ukrainian war, but in fact a Russian-American one. By the way, officially this may not be a war at all, because the state has not declared war at the same time.
Tell that to the dead. Vietnam wasn't officially a war but over 50,,000 of my generation died there. To the dead and maimed, it is a war.
Yes, it is.
To answer your question. After this war, there will be no Ukraine and the next will unfold in Moldova, which will involve Romania(Nato outpost).
The reason for Russia to go all the way to Lvov is pulling up the root of the russofobia in Ukraine, which soil is western Ukraine. Making Lvov a part of the Sovjet Empire was in way Stalins revenge. If the Sovjet order was disturb, a bloody war in Europe was guaranteed.
Today, another "impregnable fortress" Ugledar has fallen!
“As this paper is written, anti-corruption investigations, arrests and firings in the Russian military are taking place as Russia’s leadership tries to upgrade army leadership and improve military equipment and supplies released to the troops. “
Just like all the anti-corruption investigations progressing in NATO and the US. Hahahahahaha
Also, Russia now has an army of 1.5 million and will easily get millions more if attacked by NATO as opposed to Europe and the US who will find very few competent volunteers.
Russia produces artillery shells for $600 each, the US and Europe spend $5,000 per shell. Russia has hypersonic missiles and NATO and the U.S. have none. Russia get the military equipment that keeps them safe. The US gets the military equipment that makes the military industrial complex rich.
NATO has outlived its usefulness. It's more of a problem now.
It should have been disbanded the day after the Warsaw Pact broke up.
"NATO’s future is inextricably linked to Ukraine. As the war reaches an end point with Kiev potentially forced to deal with Moscow, Ukraine’s defense minister is working hard to convince Washington to give Ukraine long range weapons to attack Russian territory, especially Moscow and St. Petersburg. The Ukrainians know very well that if Washington cooperates fully, the Ukraine war will invite even more violent Russian attacks. They are counting on this to draw NATO in and have NATO troops replace Ukrainians on the front line. It is easy to understand that if NATO actually sent troops or brought NATO air power to bear on Russian operations in Ukraine, the war would rapidly expand to Europe."
NATO also knows this, which is why it will only happen after the US presideintial election.
The only deal that the Ukraine could have with Russia has been on the table since they walked away from the Minsk agreements.
<<<<<which is why it will only happen after the US presideintial election<<<<< But not if Trump wins. He will force both sides to the table. If they can't work out a deal, he will work out one for them. And whatever one's opinion of Trump, no one ignores him.
Not because he is superman but in this case because he has the keys to the money train. Money to rebuild Ukraine, lots and lots of it, trillions maybe, much of it from the E.U. Managed by Black rock, Goldman etc. with dispersal handled by Ukrainian elites. ....If the war stops immediately.
Give back money to Russia that belongs to Russia anyway. The Obama/Iran pallet loads of cash type deal on steroids but with gold instead just to give it that Trump flair. Not a puny couple billion like Obama/Iran but three hundred billion ....plus an extra fifty billion interest just for Russia being patient. To paraphrase Trump .....It will be the biggest, most beautiful Danegeld payment in history. People will say it's the best....
In addition lift a whole bunch of game changing sanctions on Russia that don't mean anything to the American public but matter very much to Russia .....if the war stops immediately.
Naturally, the current Ukrainian leadership would have to be replaced but that's easy enough to do.
Of course, the E.U. would still be Russia sanctioned into being dependent on American energy policy. But from Trump's point of view that is how it should be. Since green philosophy which requires everybody to be clueless about energy dominates European elite culture, the E.U. will think that's a good thing as well.
People said similar in 2016. Trump did no such thing. Call him."Putin puppet!" and he will.fold, just as he twice did in Syria.
Trump is weak, stupid and easily manipulated.
But don't you see? That's the whole point. You want him to find some flimsy excuse to go to war with Russia, bring back conscription and send troops over to easily defeat Russia. Except after he left office that's what America did but only half heartedly ......minus the conscription to force troops over to die in Ukraine....... And now we know from bitter experience that it wouldn't be easy after all. American troops would die by the tens of thousands regardless of whatever damage they could do to a country five thousand miles deep, if Trump had done what you want.
Ditto for Syria. You want him to go to war with Russia in Syria simply because you want him to go to war with Russia. Instead he took on ISIS and defeated it completely. With Russian help. Then he left while Russia stayed. Let Russia have whatever it thinks it gets from its costly, deadly exposure in Syria. Likely to get much more deadly and costly in the very near future. Who besides you cares if Putin can convince the locals there that he is big news?
Currently, America is involved in two active wars and trying to get a third one started. In all those situations, the participants believe that eventually America will do what you want and send in hundred of thousands of American troops if necessary. None of them thought that when Trump was in office.
It isn't him that is weak, stupid and easily manipulated.
I don't want any of the things you say I want, that's where you start to go wrong.
But what I want has no bear on what is, and what Trump is, is weak, stupid and easily manipulated.
Ther rest of your response is wishful thinking and premature declaration of victory. US troops remained in Syria throughout Trump's presidency and are there today, BTW. They are protecting ISIS, as everyone knows.
For that matter, when he was in office, the generals simply ignored or slow-played Trump orders that they did not like. Weak, stupid and easily manipulated.
n.b. I have precisely zero intention of voting for or supporting Harris.
<<<<US troops remained in Syria throughout Trump's presidency and are there today, <<<<<< But not fighting Russians or their proxies. Fighting ISIS through proxies mostly, while Trump was President.
You claim Trump folded in Syria against Russia. I say....good thing he did.... Got rid of ISIS as a threat (at least while he was in office) and didn't get into a multi-sided war with one of the opponents being a near peer. You say he should have forced the war in Ukraine while he was in office instead of leaving it to Biden to start. I say good thing.....since Russia is winning the war, overcoming the sanctions, humiliating NATO, and starting to look like the rational, calm guy in world affairs everywhere in the world except the western media .
I'm not sure that the generals ignoring the President's orders is proof of much except the willingness of people such as yourself to construe that as a good thing. (if you don't like the President) Certainly, they are ignoring Biden's orders in the same way and will ignore Harris as well.
What everybody knows about Syria is that Russia is protecting the Assad regime. One of the goals of ISIS was to overthrow the Assads. They came pretty close to succeeding. (with indirect assistance from America) That is to say ISIS, as well as American supported proxies were succeeding in their attacks on the Assad regime until Russia came and brought in air power.
You betray a complete misunderstanding of absolutely everything going on in Syria if you think it feasible that Russia was trying to undermine the Syrian government by protecting ISIS. Which I guess means you also believe that it was American troops that were trying to shelter the Syrian government.
You aregue with points that I never made.
I did not say that Trump folded against Russia. Trump folded against hios own generals. ISIS is still there, BTW, under American protection. Same as under weak, stpud, easily manipulated Trump.
I never said that the generals ignoring Trump was a good thing. Simply proof that Trump is weak, stupid and easily manipulated.
I never said that Russia was trying to undermine the Syrian government. Nor did I say that Russia was protecting ISIS. Can you point to where I said this, or do you have a problem with reading comprehension? Rather, it was Trump that attacked Syria twice on laughable pretexts.
Europe could create an army, but without weapons. The military industrial complex is a problem for the West, particular Europe.
Besides look at geography and logistics.
Eastern Europe is an easy prey for Russia, having basically created the logistics for it's army in Eastern Europe during the cold war. A huge problem for Nato as ben Hodges admitted back in 2016.
The analysis is excellent, the future is in the fog. The new NATO Secretary General is already very bellicose. Good thing the decision is not his.
The only time American military was truly glorious was at the Elba river reunion and IKE was giggling over hand painted American flag that American soldiers who fought and bleed in the Second World War waved at Russians and the way they recognize them at the first sight were golden medals at Soviet soldiers chests. Then you guys had the impulse to go into in Vietnam and to create unlivable area in Cambodia along the way. And to kill two Kennedys and MLK in the process. The Korean war and the Vietnam War were a disasters. Documented atrocities committed by Americans in the war zone. Iraque is the country amongs the axis of evil according to Izrael besides the Syria and Iran. And you did send your military there to find out there were no weapons of mass destruction produced by the head of the state that was hanged. Then when the Clinton had an impulse to go after White House intern (no judging zone, his wife is ugly, breaking a glass ceiling any time she has a chance) American people were briefed over atrocities in the Eastern Europe and everybody particularly Good Time Charlie a Texas senator were quick to Americanize the Bosnia after he had his stance in Afghanistan. The Afgan war the longest war in the sorts of democratic state history was lost miserably by all mighty force so Biden administration has to invent a new American holiday Juneteenth to celebrate the fact that you freed your slaves in your 248 existence. So how come Mother Russia (the biggest country in the world because her men always knew how to fight) should ever answer to whoever election cycle?
This is a must read, must examine, must think about, must do something, and do something about immediately post. Please read. https://open.substack.com/pub/heininger/p/tipping-point-how-middle-eastern?r=16lm0&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
"The question is what is next?"
What's next is the annihilation of the Ukrainian forces and fulfillment of Russian war objectives. Likely Ukraine will be entirely disarmed and cut off from the Black Sea forming an impotent rump state.
NATO will be humiliated, the object of scorn, with no chance at redemption. That's because many of the key NATO states are politically divided with absolutely no appetite for the kind of wars that Brussels and Washington would love to pursue. It's highly unlikely that cannon fodder can be dragooned from Germany and France, and the United States for that matter. Furthermore NATO states are a financially bankrupt, economically spent , post-industrial windmill junkyard.
Global political power will be dispersed on a multinational basis led by the victorious Russians and the Chinese economic/ industrial/technological/ juggernaut. The West will wither and largely become irrelevant on the global scene. But peace will prevail.
Regardless of what NATO's purpose was in the past, it has become a vehicle for Ray McGovern's MICIMATT complex to maintain its flow of war profits.
Virtually from the start i NATO has been a MICIMATT Cash cow. After World War II ended, the economic managers in the US, fearing a return to economic depression, decided upon military Keynesian and spending as the best route for propping up the economy without impinging on domestic revenue sectors.
The next turning point occurred in a late 60s when the predator class decided to embark on a post industrial economy. Over Time the West could no longer generate military hardware and military troops capable of fighting war against peer powers. War is still a heavy industry when the west with its Windmill economies simply cannot compete on the playing fields of war.
NATO was created in the days of Dwight Eisenhower's military industrial complex.
Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern updated its name to the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Intelligence-Media-Academia-Think-Tank (MICIMATT) complex to reflect the massive conspiracy it has become.